Post Known bugs..., So that Davide can get an overview Options

[VulcanB2]

Hi,

There are aircraft that will permit up to 10250 lbs or so of fuel in the wings when ZFW is below the wing load limiting weight.

I've got a RW ops manual here that says max wing fuel capacity is ~10300 lbs. I started another thread on this in the tech forum. http://www.flythemaddog.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8707

The three integral fuel tanks, left main, center, and right main have a capacity of 5,840 U.S. gallons (22,104 liters) or 39,128 pounds (17,748 kilograms), based on a density of 6.7 pounds per gallon (0.803 kilograms per liter).

Given the tooltip updates to the higher wing load maximum hwen ZFW is below the ZFW wing limiting line, I can only asume it is modelled, but a bug in the LM, and that the fuel contents indicator should be able to display 10000+ lbs.

Best regards,
Robin.

This post has been edited by VulcanB2: 23/08/2010, 12:15

[Jared]

Another two thoughts:

Some MD-80s, specifically Delta's MD-88s have newer eng driven hyd pumps, which basically deletes the low position and relabels high to on.

They also have an IRS installed instead of the AHRS system.

These could be options in the manager similar to the ABS system.

This post has been edited by Jared: 23/08/2010, 17:03

[Andrew]

Hi,

There are aircraft that will permit up to 10250 lbs or so of fuel in the wings when ZFW is below the wing load limiting weight.

I've got a RW ops manual here that says max wing fuel capacity is ~10300 lbs. I started another thread on this in the tech forum. http://www.flythemaddog.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8707

The three integral fuel tanks, left main, center, and right main have a capacity of 5,840 U.S. gallons (22,104 liters) or 39,128 pounds (17,748 kilograms), based on a density of 6.7 pounds per gallon (0.803 kilograms per liter).

Given the tooltip updates to the higher wing load maximum hwen ZFW is below the ZFW wing limiting line, I can only asume it is modelled, but a bug in the LM, and that the fuel contents indicator should be able to display 10000+ lbs.

Best regards,
Robin.

I've got four PDF Ops manuals, two printed manuals and perf/systems training in Seattle that say otherwise ;-). That sounds horrible, I know. Anyways, that old Continental manual that floats around is based on wording out of the old original McDD Volume 3 and is real vague about stated quantities, not giving any for specific tanks. While the TOTAL capacity is correct, around 39,100 LBS, without specifics it's impossible to determine what the tank individual tank capacities are from that document. Working backwards with the wrong values will yield wrong results, and the center tank capacity on the Leo MD80 is about 2,000 LBS short of what it actually should be. The "true" wing capacity limited by volume in the wing tanks is the equivalent of 9,200 to 9,350 LBS or thereabouts, at an assumed density of 6.7 LBS/Gal, depending which modification to conduit routing, insulating, pump revisions and wing structure modifications had been performed later in the 90's and 2000's. There were several variations - the MD80 operator I was most intimately involved with had 14 82/83 airplanes at its peak from a variety of sources, with 14 different "true" main wing capacities that floated around within the 9,200 to 9,350 LBS mark. That is, if you wanted accuracy to the pound. For standardization, the computer was programmed to assume all capacities were 9,200 LBS. The airplanes did, however, have some interesting variations in center tank capacity, again, due to different draining valve arrangements, auxiliary fuel tank piping and pumps, etc. This made for sometimes hair pulling planning when aircraft substitution left you with an airplane assigned on the Toronto to Vancouver flight with 1,000 LBS less gas available! I know there were a few incidents with aircraft that had problems with the automatic shutoff in the pressure point refueling, fuel would start to spill out the vents around 9,400 LBS if the fueler did not catch it in time.

Here's the shot from your COA manual, with the vague wording. They make no declaration on actual tank capacities of the wings or center tank. I'll toss the Boeing capture in the next post, but you can see the text is identical. I'll also put up the newer McDD declared tank capacities sheet illustrating the fixed capacity of the wing tanks but variable capacities in the center, Delta's declared capacities and the latest revision from the Boeing MD90 manual showing the slightly larger (improved) tank capacities in the virtually identical MD90 wing. The AAL and Ryan International books actually both show a declared main wing tank capacity of 9,100 LBS, and an outdated USAir copy makes a declaration at 9,275 LBS. As you can see, very little variation in the wing tanks, and I suspect most of that has to do with how many decimal places the pubs writer used in the conversion from gallons to pounds. That represents a very wide source of aircraft, with aircraft in use by those operators largely coming 3rd or 4th hand from other operators worldwide (AAL and DAL excepted, of course). So unless there's a freak aircraft out there with a wingspan that's 10 feet greater, I do not believe for an instant that there is a fuel configuration exceeding 9,350 LBS at standard density ;-). I do however believe that Leo's center tank is 2,000 LBS too small, and should be corrected for the other users as I changed mine some time ago.

 coa.JPG ( 25.96K ) Number of downloads: 44


This post has been edited by Andrew: 23/08/2010, 21:47

[Andrew]

Here's the Boeing manual capture: Note the identical wording and declared capacities without specifics.

 boe.JPG ( 55.09K ) Number of downloads: 18

[Andrew]

Here's a more specific McDD manual capture with details of specific tank capacities. Note the small variations in center tank capacity depending on valving arrangements. Also note that they give tank capacity (weight) for two extremes of fuel density, and neither extreme does not approach the 10,000+ value. Doing the math at 6.7 yields 9,266 LBS, pretty close to the actual range.

 mdd.JPG ( 88.86K ) Number of downloads: 34


This post has been edited by Andrew: 23/08/2010, 22:01

[Andrew]

Delta's declared values for the MD-88:

 dal.JPG ( 40.97K ) Number of downloads: 22

[Andrew]

For interest purposes, here is the MD-90 declared capacities. Note that even with improvements to the internal wing design, wing tank capacity is not greatly increased, given the nearly identical wing dimensions between the two aircraft, and that at the end of the day, without the AUX tank, the capacity is identical at 39,100 LBS.

 m90.JPG ( 98.37K ) Number of downloads: 17


This post has been edited by Andrew: 23/08/2010, 21:55

[Jon]

Hi,

There are aircraft that will permit up to 10250 lbs or so of fuel in the wings when ZFW is below the wing load limiting weight.

I've got a RW ops manual here that says max wing fuel capacity is ~10300 lbs. I started another thread on this in the tech forum. http://www.flythemaddog.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8707

The three integral fuel tanks, left main, center, and right main have a capacity of 5,840 U.S. gallons (22,104 liters) or 39,128 pounds (17,748 kilograms), based on a density of 6.7 pounds per gallon (0.803 kilograms per liter).

Given the tooltip updates to the higher wing load maximum hwen ZFW is below the ZFW wing limiting line, I can only asume it is modelled, but a bug in the LM, and that the fuel contents indicator should be able to display 10000+ lbs.

Best regards,
Robin.

I've got four PDF Ops manuals, two printed manuals and perf/systems training in Seattle that say otherwise ;-). That sounds horrible, I know. Anyways, that old Continental manual that floats around is based on wording out of the old original McDD Volume 3 and is real vague about stated quantities, not giving any for specific tanks. While the TOTAL capacity is correct, around 39,100 LBS, without specifics it's impossible to determine what the tank individual tank capacities are from that document. Working backwards with the wrong values will yield wrong results, and the center tank capacity on the Leo MD80 is about 2,000 LBS short of what it actually should be. The "true" wing capacity limited by volume in the wing tanks is the equivalent of 9,200 to 9,350 LBS or thereabouts, at an assumed density of 6.7 LBS/Gal, depending which modification to conduit routing, insulating, pump revisions and wing structure modifications had been performed later in the 90's and 2000's. There were several variations - the MD80 operator I was most intimately involved with had 14 82/83 airplanes at its peak from a variety of sources, with 14 different "true" main wing capacities that floated around within the 9,200 to 9,350 LBS mark. That is, if you wanted accuracy to the pound. For standardization, the computer was programmed to assume all capacities were 9,200 LBS. The airplanes did, however, have some interesting variations in center tank capacity, again, due to different draining valve arrangements, auxiliary fuel tank piping and pumps, etc. This made for sometimes hair pulling planning when aircraft substitution left you with an airplane assigned on the Toronto to Vancouver flight with 1,000 LBS less gas available! I know there were a few incidents with aircraft that had problems with the automatic shutoff in the pressure point refueling, fuel would start to spill out the vents around 9,400 LBS if the fueler did not catch it in time.

Here's the shot from your COA manual, with the vague wording. They make no declaration on actual tank capacities of the wings or center tank. I'll toss the Boeing capture in the next post, but you can see the text is identical. I'll also put up the newer McDD declared tank capacities sheet illustrating the fixed capacity of the wing tanks but variable capacities in the center, Delta's declared capacities and the latest revision from the Boeing MD90 manual showing the slightly larger (improved) tank capacities in the virtually identical MD90 wing. The AAL and Ryan International books actually both show a declared main wing tank capacity of 9,100 LBS, and an outdated USAir copy makes a declaration at 9,275 LBS. As you can see, very little variation in the wing tanks, and I suspect most of that has to do with how many decimal places the pubs writer used in the conversion from gallons to pounds. That represents a very wide source of aircraft, with aircraft in use by those operators largely coming 3rd or 4th hand from other operators worldwide (AAL and DAL excepted, of course). So unless there's a freak aircraft out there with a wingspan that's 10 feet greater, I do not believe for an instant that there is a fuel configuration exceeding 9,350 LBS at standard density ;-). I do however believe that Leo's center tank is 2,000 LBS too small, and should be corrected for the other users as I changed mine some time ago.

 coa.JPG ( 25.96K ) Number of downloads: 44

Good info Andrew, thanks for that. How do I add the 2,000 LBS. of center capacity, and will that disrupt the Maddog Manager & Setup for flight planning?

Thanks!

[Andrew]

Hi Jon,

Open up the aircraft.cfg file for the Leo Maddog, and scroll down until you see the following entries:

[FUEL]
Center1 = -6.300, 0.000, -1.500, 2728.000, 10.500
LeftMain = -2.150, -10.000, -0.750, 1391.000, 8.500
RightMain = -2.150, 10.000, -0.750, 1391.000, 8.500
fuel_type = 2.00
number_of_tank_selectors = 2
electric_pump = 0

Change the value for Center1 "2728.000" to 3074.000. That will give you the full center tank capacity. When you ask the load manager to load in excess of the original, 18,700 LBS value, you'll get the red flags showing up in the center tank entry point and CG plot. You can safely ignore them, you're within limits. Double check that the load manager has loaded gas correctly when you load the airplane though, the load manager has a tendency to never load quite what you ask it to when you load airplane.

If you need to cheat a "little" bit until we get an MD-83 update, you can bump the center tank value to 4208 to simulate the installation of the two AUX tanks.

This post has been edited by Andrew: 23/08/2010, 23:06

[Jon]

Thanks Andrew, I'll give that a try.

[VulcanB2]

Is the only real difference between MD-82 and MD-83 fuel capacity, or would trying to turn the MD-82 into an MD-83 be unrealistic?

Thanks for the info - great!!

Best regards,
Robin.

This post has been edited by VulcanB2: 25/08/2010, 4:08

[Andrew]

Is the only real difference between MD-82 and MD-83 fuel capacity, or would trying to turn the MD-82 into an MD-83 be unrealistic?

Thanks for the info - great!!

Best regards,
Robin.

They're basically the same apart from that and a few structural changes that allow the max takeoff and landing weights to be increased to 160,000 LBS and 139,500 LBS respectively. Or as the same as you can get when you have a fleet of airplanes originally ordered by 12 different operators with different ideas how the airplane should be equipped and configured ;-)! Seriously though, as a purist I feel quite a bit of guilt bumping up the tank capacity without there being the demand pump switches for the AUX tank system; but until Leo gives us an MD-83 variation there isn't much we can do if you're attempting to fly missions allocated to MD83's so equipped. So I think it's a REASONABLE compromise. I don't often fly segments that require the MD83's range so don't upgrade the tank capacity often. But if you go the MD-83 route, bump up the Max Gross weight entry in the .CFG to reflect the new structural limit. Not that it does anything anyway, but just because :-).

[VulcanB2]

hehe!

Would be good to see an MD-83 varient! Davide...??

Best regards,
Robin.

This post has been edited by VulcanB2: 25/08/2010, 14:47

[sharky]

When flying at high level, suddenly the A/P is of and the A/C is going straight to the ground. FS9, all settings checked. Flying md82 for almost 2 years, the bug appears only in maddog82 2010.

This post has been edited by sharky: 27/08/2010, 20:34

[Bahadir ALKES]

When you use Captain's panel, you can look at your left and make a circle to land by using left window view; but when you sit on F/O's side, have you ever looked at right window? it is the same view you see from captain's seat, so you can't make a circle to land from right by using that view. It must be very easy to correct.

[jgoggi]

An important VC bug: all warning lights of ESDP DO NOT WORK IN VC! They are those small yellow/red lights above the numbers showing FUEL TEMP, OIL PRESS, OIL TEMP, OIL QTY, HYDRAULIC PRESS, HYD QTY. None of them works in VC, while they work in 2D. Tested on Maddog Pro 2010 and FS9.