Procedures, KORF added, minor updates Options

[BDoney]

Thanks for the heads up guys, but, man, that site is awful, crashed FireFox twice....and sloooooow...

If that's all there is, well...I'll have to pass on it for now at least...sorry, I just don't have the patience for that

[Tord Hoppe]

Thanks for the heads up guys, but, man, that site is awful, crashed FireFox twice....and sloooooow...

If that's all there is, well...I'll have to pass on it for now at least...sorry, I just don't have the patience for that

This is the official Swedish IAIP from Luftfartsverket, swedish FAA Well, actually the link points to the swedish airport information, not many are there? The major airports where you?d expect a MD80 to drop in are, AFAIK:
Stockholm/Arlanda
G?teborg/Landvetter
Malm?/Sturup
Lule?/Kallax
UME?
Stockholm/Skavsta.

http://www.lfv.se/templates/LFV_InfoSida_70_30____37002.aspx

[Egbert Drenth]

Thanks for the heads up guys, but, man, that site is awful, crashed FireFox twice....and sloooooow...
If that's all there is, well...I'll have to pass on it for now at least...sorry, I just don't have the patience for that

Well... it's not that bad ....
Just set the correct filters and ...

[BDoney]

Egbert,

I had no problems registering/navigating the site, it just took ages to load each selection I made, and also took down FireFox twice, I think Java was crashing/freezing/timing out waiting for data.

[Andy006]

While I will continue to work on procedures for the US, we have a good base now, and I would love to start looking at some European facilities. I will need help finding good, current data, as it does not seem as readily available, at least at first glance, as I'd hoped. This can be charts, text files, anything. Please, if you can help with this, add a post to this thread with any relevant information, and I'll see what I can do.

Hi Brian have a look to the Eurocontrol Site Eurocontrol EAD You must register first but its for free. There you can download alltime the latest charts for free in PDF.

[Egbert Drenth]

Hi Brian have a look to the Eurocontrol Site Eurocontrol EAD You must register first but its for free. There you can download alltime the latest charts for free in PDF.

That's the site we already were discussion here above ...

[David Walschots]

Of course Navigraph charts can be used. But those are quite expensive. Is there any site we can upload our procedure files to? Navdata.at doesn't seem to support the Maddog!

EDIT: Might be time for me to create a new site for these kind of files. Many add-on's are not supported by navdata.at

This post has been edited by David Walschots: 31/03/2007, 20:26

[BDoney]

David,

For the time being, attach them to a post, and I'll get them included with the proper credits.

For myself, testing SP1 has taken priority at the moment, as I'm sure all will understand.

[David Walschots]

David,

For the time being, attach them to a post, and I'll get them included with the proper credits.

For myself, testing SP1 has taken priority at the moment, as I'm sure all will understand.

Yes sure, already started on some modelling for an ASP.NET C# website .

[Caines]

David,

For the time being, attach them to a post, and I'll get them included with the proper credits.

For myself, testing SP1 has taken priority at the moment, as I'm sure all will understand.

Yes sure, already started on some modelling for an ASP.NET C# website .

I have some problems by making new procedures for airports. I do not understand how to make a turn towards a specific direction. I have to make a little fictive FIX right of the "route" then the real FIX / Navaid if I want the procedure to take a rigt turn. Anyone who knows the correct way?

[adamant365]

Brian,
Haven't gotten to Europe yet...here's ORF:

 KORF.txt ( 5.63K ) Number of downloads: 49


-adam

[Niklas Kull]

Thanks for the heads up guys, but, man, that site is awful, crashed FireFox twice....and sloooooow...

If that's all there is, well...I'll have to pass on it for now at least...sorry, I just don't have the patience for that

This is the official Swedish IAIP from Luftfartsverket, swedish FAA Well, actually the link points to the swedish airport information, not many are there? The major airports where you?d expect a MD80 to drop in are, AFAIK:
Stockholm/Arlanda
G?teborg/Landvetter
Malm?/Sturup
Lule?/Kallax
UME?
Stockholm/Skavsta.

http://www.lfv.se/templates/LFV_InfoSida_70_30____37002.aspx

You forgot a few airports there
?stersund ESNZ
Kiruna ESNQ
Sundsvall ESNN

With these swedish airports I should be happy.

[Basten.H]

I'm going to start on some Norwegian airports. First will be ENZV and then ENBR and after the other larger airports will follow...

[BAW277]

I would love to see some german airports as well, obviously. There is at least one MD-80 flying over my house few times a week, seems like a SAS one. Living near EDDK.

Best

Holger

[Dotti]

Today i was spending my easter sunday working with the procedure maker, great tool!!! Right now I?m working on some procedures for EFHK (Helsinki) and i have one question: Is it possible to programm that when selecting a runway (arrival or departure) in the fmc that only the applicable procedures (sid and stars) will show up? So far i havent?t found out, or maybe is it ok also in real life.

Thank for any help

//Dotti

[Vetal]

And I would love to see some ukrainian airports! Our UMAIR has some MD-80 in Kiev, Borispol - UKBB.
Thank you!

[Bodo von Thadden]

Good morning,

I tried to fix the Sid/Stars for Bremen ( EDDW ). But somehow some sid's doesn't show up e.g. EET8. I have no clue why it doesn't work

Perhaps could somebody take a look at it. Thanks.

Bodo

Attached File(s)

 EDDW.txt ( 8.32K ) Number of downloads: 36

 

[BDoney]

Bodo,

I only have had a brief moment to look, but I do see that you have used "KEEP TRK UNTIL" which I do not believe is a valid syntax for the Maddog.

Instead, if the desired track is known(i.e., runway hdg), use "TRK XXX UNTIL" where XXX is the desired track in degrees.

[hydpress]

Brian and others,

great stuff you're doing here!

First a note on the Eurocontrol site: It's now available in a pure HTML version, so it shouldn't crash your browser any more. More information here:

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadcms/eads...p;Itemid=3.html

I haven't tried out the HTML version though -- only used the Java version once or twice, and that sure was a pain...

I've also started out on programming procedures... I'm doing LOWS (Salzburg, Austria -- some interesting procedures there, by the way, for those who haven't flown there), and I have a couple of questions that I hope someone will be able to resolve.

First, should a STAR begin with the waypoint that it originates at, or should it start with the next waypoint after that, the assumption being that you've already input the start waypoint? Maybe an example will make this clearer... there's a STAR at LOWS that starts at the RTT NDB and routes via CHIEM and a couple of DME-defined intersections to SBG VOR. When defining this STAR, should I include the RTT NDB, or should I leave it off and start with CHIEM, since RTT is probably going to be in the FMC route already, anyway? I'm asking because I've seen both styles in procedure files I've downloaded, and I'd like to know which is right.

Second, for navaids and intersections, is it preferable to define those myself in the procedure file (as a FIX), or should I pull them in as a NAVAID (in hopes that the AIRAC is current)? It seems a bit wasteful to redefine all of the waypoints when they're probably in the AIRAC already, but OTOH someone with an old AIRAC might not be able to use the procedures if they use recently defined waypoints. (The RNAV transitions-to-final that are now all the rage at the larger German airports come to mind... they use loads of numbered fixes called DS411, DS412, DS413 etc.) Or maybe I should compromise and define the intersections, but not the VORs and NDBs, in the assumption that the former will change more quickly than the latter?

And one more question (if I may...) -- does anyone know how the Maddog disambiguates between several NAVAIDs with the same name? I'm asking because Salzburg has a VOR named SBG and an NDB named SBG, and they're not colocated (don't ask me who came up with that). So if I pull those in via a NAVAID instructions -- what's going to happen? I'm going to play it safe and define both explicitly (they're called SBGVOR and SBGNDB in my file), but I'm curious anyway...

Oh, and Brian -- if you could check out my procedure file when I'm done, that would be great!

Cheers,

Martin

[BDoney]

Martin,

First, should a STAR begin with the waypoint that it originates at, or should it start with the next waypoint after that, the assumption being that you've already input the start waypoint? Maybe an example will make this clearer... there's a STAR at LOWS that starts at the RTT NDB and routes via CHIEM and a couple of DME-defined intersections to SBG VOR. When defining this STAR, should I include the RTT NDB, or should I leave it off and start with CHIEM, since RTT is probably going to be in the FMC route already, anyway? I'm asking because I've seen both styles in procedure files I've downloaded, and I'd like to know which is right.

I've taken a look at the chart from EADS, and I believe the transition you speak of, on the chart I see, is listed as:

FM TULSI via L725 to CHIEM->INSOL via T701 to SBG VOR

If this is correct, I think the best way to code these arrivals is to create each transition as a separate STAR, only because the STAR itself does not seem to have an identifier to name it as a whole.

I see the following transitions available:

TULSI
KPT
MUN
WLD
EGG
LNZ
BAGSI
RASTA

So I would do the following:

STAR TULSI FIX VISIBLE TULSI FIX VISIBLE CHIEM FIX VISIBLE INSOL NAVAID SBG
STAR KPT NAVAID KPT FIX VISIBLE TRAUN NAVAID SBG

etc. (though it would be a good idea to sort them alphabetically )

To answer your actual question, after my long winded comments , if a fix/navaid is listed on the procedure, it should be included. This will allow for the occasional "Proceed direct XXX than via the arrival" to be loaded directly from the ARR page of the FMS, without having to have the arrival transition entered separately.

Second, for navaids and intersections, is it preferable to define those myself in the procedure file (as a FIX), or should I pull them in as a NAVAID (in hopes that the AIRAC is current)? It seems a bit wasteful to redefine all of the waypoints when they're probably in the AIRAC already, but OTOH someone with an old AIRAC might not be able to use the procedures if they use recently defined waypoints. (The RNAV transitions-to-final that are now all the rage at the larger German airports come to mind... they use loads of numbered fixes called DS411, DS412, DS413 etc.) Or maybe I should compromise and define the intersections, but not the VORs and NDBs, in the assumption that the former will change more quickly than the latter?

I like to play it a bit safe. All fixes that are NOT specifically VOR's or NDB's get redefined in the individual procedure file. I agree, it may be a bit more work initially, but IMHO it allows for much greater flexibility, in addition to remaining compatible across different AIRAC cycles, as you mention.

The DS411, DS412 type fixes you mention are especially susceptible to eventual duplication, etc.

I'm considering eventually including VOR's and NDB's as well, when I find time to update the files here, as this then makes the procedures entirely independent of the AIRAC data, but I would agree that this is not entirely necessary.

And one more question (if I may...) -- does anyone know how the Maddog disambiguates between several NAVAIDs with the same name? I'm asking because Salzburg has a VOR named SBG and an NDB named SBG, and they're not colocated (don't ask me who came up with that). So if I pull those in via a NAVAID instructions -- what's going to happen? I'm going to play it safe and define both explicitly (they're called SBGVOR and SBGNDB in my file), but I'm curious anyway...

Of this I am not sure, as I have yet to come across this situation. Davide ?

Oh, and Brian -- if you could check out my procedure file when I'm done, that would be great!

I'd be glad to. I wish I could find more time to write new files, but that hasn't been possible these past weeks, so at the very least I can help give advice from what I have learned so far.

[hydpress]

Brian,

wow, thanks for that comprehensive reply!

there's a STAR at LOWS that starts at the RTT NDB and routes via CHIEM and a couple of DME-defined intersections to SBG VOR.

I've taken a look at the chart from EADS, and I believe the transition you speak of, on the chart I see, is listed as:

FM TULSI via L725 to CHIEM->INSOL via T701 to SBG VOR

Yes, that's basically the one... I was using the charts at http://www.vacc-sag.org (the VATSIM ACC for Switzerland, Austria and Germany), and they seem to be out of date, so sorry about the confusion.

If this is correct, I think the best way to code these arrivals is to create each transition as a separate STAR, only because the STAR itself does not seem to have an identifier to name it as a whole.

OK, that makes sense...

So I would do the following:

STAR TULSI FIX VISIBLE TULSI FIX VISIBLE CHIEM FIX VISIBLE INSOL NAVAID SBG
STAR KPT NAVAID KPT FIX VISIBLE TRAUN NAVAID SBG

OK, so you include the first waypoint in the STAR... that's what made the most sense to me, too, but I've seen some procedure files that left those waypoints off, so I wasn't sure...

I like to play it a bit safe. All fixes that are NOT specifically VOR's or NDB's get redefined in the individual procedure file. I agree, it may be a bit more work initially, but IMHO it allows for much greater flexibility, in addition to remaining compatible across different AIRAC cycles, as you mention.

Right, so I'll add FIX entries for everything that's not a VOR or NDB...

Oh, and Brian -- if you could check out my procedure file when I'm done, that would be great!

I'd be glad to. I wish I could find more time to write new files, but that hasn't been possible these past weeks, so at the very least I can help give advice from what I have learned so far.

Well, your comments have certainly been very helpful! I'll upload the procedure file when I have it ready...

Cheers,

Martin

[hydpress]

Hi everyone, here's my procedure file for LOWS. Any comments are welcome...

 LOWS.txt ( 11.98K ) Number of downloads: 31


I'm also planning to upload this to the PMDG section of navdata.at -- can anyone tell me what the exact differences between the Maddog version of the PMDG format and the "original" PMDG format are? Can I simply delete all of the "VISIBLE" specifiers to obtain a valid PMDG file?

Cheers,

Martin

[Adam Pihavek]

Hi all,
I have just now completed correction of PMDG procedures of LKPR(prague ruzyne) for maddog.
You can find it here:  LKPR.txt ( 11.47K ) Number of downloads: 23


It is my first attempt,so comments are welcome . I still don?t know exactly,how to make a typical "drop". in any approaches etc...I know,that in pro maker,there are a lot of oprions,but they aren?t explained in manual at all...if there was any better tutorial,it would be appreciated.

And could anyone tell me,how are called in real maddog database FAF point and etc?

Thanks,
Adam

P.S.I was also thinking about procedures database for maddog...I think,searching in this thread is little bit chaotic...are there any plans to make a page like on navdata.at ,to be able to dowload AIO or each proc. separately and also you would know,when it was uploaded etc....or what about uploading it straight to navdata.at ??

[hydpress]

P.S.I was also thinking about procedures database for maddog...I think,searching in this thread is little bit chaotic...are there any plans to make a page like on navdata.at ,to be able to dowload AIO or each proc. separately and also you would know,when it was uploaded etc....or what about uploading it straight to navdata.at ??

That sounds like a very good idea... I've been thinking about uploading my LOWS procedures to the PMDG section at navdata.at but am hesitant about it, because a "native" PMDG coding of those procedures would probably use a few leg types not supported by the Maddog. So maybe it would make sense to ask Richard Stefan to open a new section for "Maddog PMDG" procedures.

OTOH, I've heard Richard Stefan has almost finished a converter that will allow him to release PMDG procedures generated directly from his AIRAC source files, so maybe once he's finished that we can convince him to tweak the converter slightly so it will generate Maddog-compatible procedures. No more hand-coding necessary, and we would be able to get updated procedures every 28 days...

Martin

[sjampas]

Hi there!
Have put mine here: ENGM,ENTO,ENRY,ENBO
Contain some fictional fixes to maintain hdgs but it will get you there...
If I make more Ill will put them there aswell. Based on Navigraph charts.
No garanty that they work 100% not fully flight testet mostly looked at in promaker.


Jan Tore Elvheim
Norway

[igniflight]

salve!, posso Avere delle informazioni Come creare posso: up: un piano di volo col FMS 900 ??... GRAZIE!